The officer team dives into the powerful conversations that came out of PSEA's recent special education roundtables. More than 100 educators sat down with lawmakers to talk about challenges and brainstorm solutions. Two of those roundtable participants - special ed. teacher Cassie McCabe and speech therapist Christina Rojas - join us to share their experiences.
The officer team dives into the powerful conversations that came out of PSEA's recent special education roundtables. More than 100 educators sat down with lawmakers to talk about challenges and brainstorm solutions. Two of those roundtable participants - special ed. teacher Cassie McCabe and speech therapist Christina Rojas - join us to share their experiences.
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Learn more and watch for upcoming episodes at psea.org/podcast.
Voiceover:
Welcome to Duty-Free Lunch, the official podcast of the Pennsylvania State Education Association. Join us as we unpack the issues that matter most to you from cutting-edge classroom strategies to thought-provoking policy discussions. If it impacts PSEA members, it's on the menu.
Aaron Chapin:
Hello, and welcome again to Duty-Free Lunch. I'm PSEA president, Aaron Chapin. I'm here today with PSEA vice-president Jeff Ney, and PSEA treasurer Rachael West. Jeff, Rachael, hello.
Rachael West:
Hey, Aaron. How you doing?
Aaron Chapin:
You guys had to decide who was saying hi first.
Jeff Ney:
Yeah, we wanted to switch it up a little bit. We want to keep you on your toes.
Aaron Chapin:
Well, it's been a long time since we've... It's been a month since we did the last podcast recording, and we really haven't been together for several weeks.
Jeff Ney:
It has been. We've all been on the road and it's nice to be back together again.
Aaron Chapin:
How's your travels been, Rachael?
Rachael West:
They've all gone really smoothly, and I've had a great time visiting with our members across the state.
Aaron Chapin:
You've been everywhere.
Rachael West:
I have been everywhere.
Aaron Chapin:
Jeff, your travels' good.
Jeff Ney:
Travels have been very good. Airlines have been very, very non-issues, which is rare in this day and age.
Aaron Chapin:
That's good grammar.
Jeff Ney:
Sorry.
Aaron Chapin:
That's all right.
Jeff Ney:
This is why I teach math and science.
Aaron Chapin:
For everybody out there, while we're recording this, this is in the busiest time of year for us. For about two and a half months, we are traveling across the state, and in some cases going to different states as well for conferences, so we've been extremely busy. Have you been home very much, Rachael?
Rachael West:
No.
Aaron Chapin:
Does your husband recognize you?
Rachael West:
I am usually there for about 20 hours at a time, and he usually... The dog recognizes me first, though.
Aaron Chapin:
That's right. Parker's very excited when I come home.
Jeff Ney:
Well, somebody should be excited when you come home.
Aaron Chapin:
Well. Let's get this podcast started so that I can go home. It's great to be back in your presence. We got a really great topic today, something that I know is dear to the three of us as state officers. We're going to be talking special education. You excited?
Jeff Ney:
I'm very excited. Special education is right up my alley.
Aaron Chapin:
You're saying I'm too close to the microphone?
Jeff Ney:
Not close enough.
Aaron Chapin:
I disagree. Listen to it in two weeks.
Jeff Ney:
Okay.
Aaron Chapin:
We're going to be talking about special education, particularly, because we've had a series of special education roundtables that we hosted this spring. Actually, it was more of the winter time. We did it back in January and February. We did it in five different spots across Pennsylvania. And Jeff, let me tell you, these were incredible experiences.
Jeff Ney:
Every one that I went to was absolutely fantastic. You took something away at each one.
Aaron Chapin:
Rachael, you agree?
Rachael West:
Absolutely. I was amazed at some of the stories that I heard.
Aaron Chapin:
We had more than a hundred educators. We had dozens of lawmakers all come together for these roundtables. Our members got to sit down with these lawmakers, talk honestly, and it was real straight talk, about the challenges in today's world of special education. Everything from the overwhelming caseloads to burnout to the rising needs of our students, and really the lack of resources that make it all harder on our teachers today, as well as our support staff. Here in the studio. We got two of those Roundtable attendees. We've got Cassie McCabe, special education teacher at IU 15. How y ou doing, Cassie?
Cassie McCabe:
I'm great, Aaron. How are you?
Aaron Chapin:
I am great, because you both are in the room today. Normally it's just these two, so it's great to have you here.
Cassie McCabe:
I'm happy to keep you company.
Aaron Chapin:
All right. We also got Christina Rojas. She's an elementary school speech therapist in the school district of Lancaster. How you doing, Christina?
Christina Rojas:
I'm doing well. How are you?
Aaron Chapin:
I'm doing well. And a little known fact for you out there, they're both first-year presidents of their local associations.
Cassie McCabe:
That's right.
Aaron Chapin:
So you've got an even greater workload than some. So thank you for what you do. Let's get right into this discussion. Cassie, I'm going to start with you. Tell us about your experience when you did this roundtable down in the Southern Region. What was it like to participate in the roundtable. And what made you even want to be there in the first place?
Cassie McCabe:
Well, anyone who knows me at all knows that I love to talk, especially about the issues that I'm passionate about and the issues that impact me on a daily basis. I've done the advocates for Children and education training, the ACE training, that I encourage all of our members to do that. And that made me even more comfortable if that was actually possible, with talking to my legislators and others, about the issues that we have to deal with that need to be solved and that we have some ideas on how to solve.
Aaron Chapin:
And you said something there that's important. It's not an easy thing for some of our colleagues to do, to go in front of a legislator and speak their mind. For some reason, we think they're so high and mighty, but they're just average everyday citizens just like us.
Cassie McCabe:
They jump into those pants two legs at a time, just like the rest of us.
Aaron Chapin:
Two legs?
Cassie McCabe:
At the same time.
Aaron Chapin:
At the same time. Christina, what was it like for you?
Christina Rojas:
It was same. It was pretty eye-opening, I think, seeing how some of the legislators really didn't know what we were really dealing with, and how dire the situation is. But I appreciated that they really listened, that they asked thoughtful questions. But overall, I think it just showed how essential it is for educators and union members to keep showing up and keep telling our stories, especially as the PA budget process moves forward, to really make it personal.
Jeff Ney:
So I was at most of those special ed round tables, and after the thing was done, both of you guys had a chance to talk directly to a legislator. So how did those conversation go? Cassie, I'll then start with you, and then we'll go ask Christina.
Cassie McCabe:
Sure. Absolutely. The conversations felt pretty natural. I had walked up, and actually I had been approached by one of the legislators on his out. He encouraged us to continue to do this work and continue to hold events like that. And then I had talked to my representative from the district that I live in, and a couple others who were in the physical area of the room, and I felt invited to continue those conversations. I've actually since met with two of those legislators in private meetings so that we could continue to talk about the things that are going on, and what they can do about it.
Aaron Chapin:
Excellent.
Christina Rojas:
I would say the same. I was able to connect with my district representative. I've been in contact with his office, and with him personally. To the point where now we're just texting, like going, hey, can you show up for this? Can you show up for that? He's invited me to be on different round tables and being able to speak from the educator's perspective, and also to represent the union of Lancaster. So it's been very fruitful since then.
Jeff Ney:
Did that surprise you that the legislator reached out, and asked you to do a little bit more for them?
Christina Rojas:
Yeah. Came right up as soon as we were done and exchanged numbers. He was in contact right away. And then his office staff were emailing me, "Hey, do you want to do this? If not, do you have a member that would?" And so they're really looking to get us involved in the conversation.
Aaron Chapin:
Who's that legislator?
Christina Rojas:
Izzy Smith.
Aaron Chapin:
Oh, it's Izzy. I saw him in the Capitol a month ago, and he gave me a high five as I was walking down the hallway. He's very warm and welcoming.
Christina Rojas:
Yes, yes.
Jeff Ney:
It's always great to know that these legislators want to learn a little bit more about what goes on inside all of our schools.
Rachael West:
Absolutely. So Christina, one of the things that you raised in the conversation at the Southern Region roundtable was the unsustainable workloads of our special education teachers and members. So what does that mean to you? Could you describe that to us, what that unsustainable workload looks like?
Christina Rojas:
I think overall, it's the constantly adding on, adding on and adding on, and not taking anything off. And I think when people think about caseloads, we go back to, what is it, chapter 14 of 1949. When IEPs were a three page carbon copy. You could just call a parent and say, hey, I'm going to start seeing your kid for X service, and that was it. Where now there are about a minimum of a 30 page document with a ton of supplemental documents, and that's just the paperwork alone. That's not talking about all the indirect services that go into supporting kids. And as wonderful as inclusion is, I don't think everyone understands the lift that comes along with that, as we have more medically fragile kids in the schools, as we have more kids who come back to us with traumatic brain injuries or other trauma.
Which is amazing that they can get support within their home schools and their local communities, but we have to look at the resources and how taxing that can be. And so I think that's the piece that everyone misses, is they just look at a kid as a number on a caseload, and not the workload and all the indirect support that come along with it.
Rachael West:
Absolutely.
Jeff Ney:
So both of you guys being local leaders, we've talked about it in Aaron's intro, burnout is something that all of our teachers are experiencing, support professionals included. So one of the things that we always talk about is being able to take care of yourself first. So first, Cass, I'm going to go to you first. What do you do to manage your own to make sure that burnout is not something that you experience? And then if you could share something what you tell your local when you see one of your members reaching that point.
Cassie McCabe:
Sure. I think the most important part, and the way that it can all be summed up, both the advice and what I do personally, is a separation of self and profession. Obviously, we care. Obviously, we're very, very passionate and emotionally invested in our own experience, and the outcomes of our students. But at the end of the day, this is a job. Educators have and need to have hobbies, friends, family experiences. You can't just focus all of your energy all of the time on the school, and the students, and what you have to do there in order to fulfill your duties. I encourage my members to leave their feelings at the door, and pick them back up when you need to leave. But the same goes, so when you're coming into school, leave your home feelings at the door, and when you're going home, leave your school feelings at the school door.
Jeff Ney:
That's great advice.
Aaron Chapin:
Yep.
Jeff Ney:
Christina, anything to add to that that you do yourself?
Christina Rojas:
I think looking at our union in the collective spirit of getting at systemic issues and the organization. I don't know if you guys have read any of the all National Park service, or all Department of Ed pages on Facebook. But just seeing the organization that's out there, and the collective resistance that's happening, and people saying out loud what we're feeling is chaos and it's not normal and it's not okay. And looking at that as hope. And then coming back to our state organization, our locals, and feeling that collective solidarity, I think is also really supportive too.
Rachael West:
Absolutely. And you're talking about support, and our mental health state as we're talking about trying to avoid burnout. And both of you also probably heard in the roundtable that mental health for both educators and students came up a lot as a major concern. So we'll start with Christina. What do you wish was being done differently on the front of mental health for educators, and for students?
Christina Rojas:
So I'm a big proponent of not using that toxic positivity, and calling things out for what they are and naming it sometimes, because that's really important to people. And then having real conversations. We can say, oh, take time for yourself, or do this. But no, we need staffing, we need to have the resources needed to make it successful. We talk about a shortage, but it's the same thing after Covid. Oh, we don't have this, or we're not offering that because of Covid. And now it's like, oh, well, we have a staffing shortage. Rather than what are we doing to make this a place that people want to work at, and then it'll help us with our mental health.
Rachael West:
Excellent. Cassie, how about you?
Cassie McCabe:
So I'll tackle that more from the student end of things. I work with students primarily with emotional disturbance, and other health impairments that impact their ability to participate in the school environment. And there's so many different things, but that shortage is all over. It's not just in our schools, it's not just in one field of our schools, and it's also in the wider mental health field. So when a student has a crisis, or they have some other mental health issue, there's still an obligation for a free and appropriate public education. So when they are denied placement at a residential treatment facility, or when they go to the hospital for a mental health call, and by the time they've got there, they've calmed down. And so there's no longer any issue, they're back in school the next day. And that's something that we have to deal with, whether they're in a general education environment or whether they're in a more specialized environment like the one that I teach in.
It becomes a cycle where you're going back to the same thing every day, both for the students and for the staff members. So there needs to be some action or something to break that cycle. And a lot of it does come down to having more bodies, more staff members, but we need to look at the wider community lens as well. So it's a different podcast, but I'm very interested in the community schools models, and how we can all work together across our health and human services, our transportation, our nutrition, in order to make our schools that much stronger.
Christina Rojas:
Was just going to... If I can just add.
Aaron Chapin:
Absolutely.
Christina Rojas:
I love that point. I actually work at a community school. We have seven in the school district of Lancaster, and actually won a national award about it, so I would love to talk more about that.
Aaron Chapin:
That's a great idea. And I know we have members out there, we've got some of these community schools out there. And something that we've been trying to, through our government relations team, really get legislators to buy into, because they're a great way to reinvent our school districts right now. Let's talk about safety, because when we were, especially, in the Southern Region roundtable, it came up a lot. But this was a common theme. We had basically seven common themes that we heard throughout the five different experiences. Cassie, what are some of the... And again, we don't want to give too much away, we don't want to break any confidentiality or anything. But what are some of the safety challenges that you in your school have encountered? And how are they impacting your ability and your colleagues' ability to teach?
Cassie McCabe:
Safety is certainly a huge concern for my school, and it's becoming to trickle down into more general education environments. But when you put a number of students who have behavioral and emotional challenges into the same location, well, they don't always get along so well. And they don't always take being told no by a staff member very well. So I will note that I had two concussions within my first three years of teaching. That has impacted me throughout the subsequent years, both with my own brain, and the way that it responds to things, but also my ability to respond calmly and unbiasedly to some situations based on those triggered responses. It's about balancing that free and appropriate public education with the reality that some students negatively impact the learning of themselves and their peers.
I could continue to talk about the staffing and the need for more bodies, but the reality is more complex than that. It involves training those people, and it involves buy-in from the adults and the kids themselves. The kids want to try to do better, most of them do, but some of them are harder to reach than others.
Rachael West:
So you talked about some of the things that may have a child end up in your program. I'm just going to go to Christina. As a speech therapist, have you seen the rise in autism diagnoses being something that impacts you as a challenge? Is that changing group of pool of students impacting you directly?
Christina Rojas:
Absolutely. The hallmark piece of autism is social communication, so that's where speech pathologists are going to come in and be huge. And the other side of it too is, looking at all of the needs that are coming in. Like I said, with traumatic brain injury, and children with more medically fragile needs, it makes the individualized support heavy for all of them. But especially with autism, I think what people don't always realize, especially for speech pathologists, is you have an IEP with maybe X number of direct minutes for service. But if they're using a device that may take extra hours each week for programming the device, working with the child, training the staff, working with them. So it's a big lift. I know we're opening a large number of, I think we're adding about six different autism classes this year alone, on top of the ones that we added last year. So the numbers are going through the roof.
Jeff Ney:
So Christina, I'm going to stick with you. Standardized testing was another one of those big issues that we talked about at your roundtable. So describe to me, because obviously standardized testing does not tell the whole story of a special ed student. So what's your take on standardized testing when it comes to your students?
Christina Rojas:
Well, it doesn't reflect their growth, or their real learning. It also takes away from instructional time. It adds stress for our kids. They already know that they might be different. They already know that they might be learning differently, and it just makes them feel unsuccessful. And it's sad, and it's also painful to watch. I think in Pennsylvania, we need to rethink how we are assessing learning for all students. And I think it's so important that the union is supporting assessments that are actually useful and developmentally appropriate, and not punitive and high stakes.
Aaron Chapin:
I think we heard some legislators even agree at your roundtable, that they were like, these standardized tests are of no value to the kids, that even your teaching, but teaching altogether. But Cassie, you were very vulnerable, very open, and I've known you for about four years. I know you don't have an issue expressing how you feel. Was that really important for you to do that when you were talking with the legislators?
Cassie McCabe:
Yes, absolutely. If we're given the opportunity to speak our truth, then I think it's important to speak the whole truth. I don't personally feel like it's very hard to be vulnerable, and open about my experiences. I think it's helpful and maybe it would be helpful to others to know that everyone's there voluntarily. No one is stonewalling anyone. They're all there to listen, and to get directly involved.
Aaron Chapin:
Great.
Rachael West:
So now that we have finished up all the roundtables and the budget process is moving forward, can you give me one or two things that you think you're really hoping will open up what will come next, or how somebody else can join in this fight? So I'll let... If you want to go first, Christina and say-
Christina Rojas:
Sure. I think overall, I don't think we want sympathy. We want real policy change. And I think it's one of those things that, it's one thing to talk, but are you walking the walk? And I think that's what we want to see our legislators do. And I think just for members, just get involved. Go to your capitol, speak to your local legislators. The more of us who speak up, the harder it is for us to be ignored.
Rachael West:
Absolutely. Do you have anything to add, Cassie?
Cassie McCabe:
Sure. My biggest hope is that people reach out and ask questions. You don't know what you don't know. So ask. And like Christina said, there are tons of ways to get involved. Join your local... If you're not a teacher or an educator, you can still join as an affiliate member, and help us out that way you can donate to PACE, or any AIPAC. Think outside to yourself in your own personal struggle to how this can generalize. Because education benefits society as a whole. When we don't fund it, we're pushing the cost further down the road. And when we don't participate in that or participate as a community, then it's not as successful as it could be.
Aaron Chapin:
Couldn't have said any better.
Jeff Ney:
Wow.
Aaron Chapin:
Well done.
Jeff Ney:
My goodness.
Aaron Chapin:
I know. And...
Jeff Ney:
What?
Aaron Chapin:
Because you both have been so well-behaved this month, you both get a pop quiz question.
Jeff Ney:
Oh, yes.
Aaron Chapin:
All right. Jeff, you're first.
Jeff Ney:
Ladies, you are given a magic wand to fix special education in Pennsylvania. What's the first thing that you are going to address with your magic wand?
Aaron Chapin:
Keep it short.
Jeff Ney:
Cassie.
Cassie McCabe:
Oh my goodness. That's a good question. There're so many different things, but I think that I would create an unlimited personal care assistant PCA generator, so everyone gets one-on-one instruction.
Jeff Ney:
Oh, that's great. Christina.
Christina Rojas:
I think I would streamline the paperwork so that we don't have a lot of fluff, and a lot of wasted time, so that our actual time can be with our kids.
Aaron Chapin:
And that came up a lot in five of the round tables.
Jeff Ney:
100%.
Aaron Chapin:
The paperwork. The paperwork.
Rachael West:
I was a regular ed teacher, but I worked really closely with my special ed teacher, and I just could not believe the amount of paperwork you guys do. If your job has given you one superpower, what would it be? Christina, you can start.
Christina Rojas:
I went into speech therapy wanting to be an advocate, and to give people their voice. Before I came into education, I worked with adults with strokes and traumatic brain injury. And then I just fell into working with kids with those same needs, and it involved into working into a school, and that naturally flowed into wanting to be a union advocate. So I think overall, just the superpower of wanting to stand up for the people that are vulnerable, and make them feel that their voice is heard, even when their voice is shaking, maybe mine is too. But really standing up for what's right and doing the right thing.
Rachael West:
Great. Cassie, how about you?
Cassie McCabe:
Well, anyone who knows me knows I'm fairly obsessed with Wonder Woman, and if I could give anything for a lasso of truth, I absolutely would. But the superpower I think I have is that, this job has taught me the difference between patience and understanding. I might not be running with a lot of patience. I might have my own frustrations or anxieties or things along those lines, but if I can understand why a person's doing what they're doing, or how they think they're going about it, or take a little bit of their perspective, then I can be more successful, and stay calm in whatever situation.
Jeff Ney:
I think the lasso of truth though is better.
Cassie McCabe:
Agreed.
Jeff Ney:
Yeah.
Aaron Chapin:
Would you like a lasso of truth?
Jeff Ney:
I would like the lasso of truth. I don't know if anybody would want to know what comes out of my mouth if given if tied with that lasso of truth.
Aaron Chapin:
I don't think it's a good accessory for you. Unfortunately, we are out of time today. Our guests today have been Christina Rojas and Cassie McCabe. Speaking for myself, I've known you during my time as a VP and president. And the journey you both have been on separate journeys, but you're coming to the same point, it's been a great leadership journey. I am so impressed with both of you, and I'm very much in awe, and your members are lucky to have you. But your students are even luckier. You're both amazing human beings. So thank you for taking some time to be in here today, and I can't wait to see you in the month of May, or special ed conference. We to see you there?
Cassie McCabe:
Yes. Special ed conference. House of delegates.
Christina Rojas:
All of it.
Aaron Chapin:
All right. So I'll see you next weekend, which by the time this comes out, it already happened.
Cassie McCabe:
Oh, awesome.
Aaron Chapin:
I know it gets confusing. It's already-
Rachael West:
Spoilers.
Aaron Chapin:
No spoiler. Hey, thank you very much for being here and sharing your experiences.
Cassie McCabe:
Thank you.
Christina Rojas:
Anytime.
Aaron Chapin:
All right. And thanks of all of our listeners for tuning in. You have some feedback for us, questions, comments, you know, all that good stuff. You got to send us an email to podcast@psa.org. Maybe your wife will email in.
Jeff Ney:
Mine?
Aaron Chapin:
Yeah.
Jeff Ney:
Well, she has to listen first.
Aaron Chapin:
Oh, she's still not listening. What about your husband, is he listening to this thing yet?
Rachael West:
He listens when I play them in the car when we're both together.
Aaron Chapin:
I'd like to know when people are listening. If you're out there, I'd like to know when are you listening to Duty-Free Lunch?
Jeff Ney:
What's your favorite podcast?
Aaron Chapin:
It's Duty-Free Lunch.
Jeff Ney:
No, no, no. I'm sorry. What's your favorite Duty-Free Lunch episode, I should say?
Aaron Chapin:
It's hard to pick between your favorite children in your classroom, right?
Jeff Ney:
I can do that every year.
Aaron Chapin:
What are you laughing at? That's terrible.
Jeff Ney:
I can always pick out the favorite.
Aaron Chapin:
Hey, I'm Aaron Chapin.
Jeff Ney:
And I'm Jeff Ney.
Rachael West:
And I'm Rachael West.
Aaron Chapin:
And you have been listening to Duty-Free Lunch. Bye for now.
Voiceover:
You've been listening to Duty-Free Lunch with the Pennsylvania State Education Association. Visit psa.org/podcast to learn more. And don't forget to subscribe and share paid for by the Pennsylvania State Education Association.