Arizona Education Association President Marisol Garcia and Utah Education Association's Bonnie Billings join Aaron and Rachael to share how their members advocated against anti-union legislation. From court challenges to referendums, they discuss the tools that worked, the power of solidarity with other unions, the movement against Arizona's costly voucher program, and what Pennsylvania members can learn from it all.
Arizona Education Association President Marisol Garcia and Utah Education Association's Bonnie Billings join Aaron and Rachael to share how their members advocated against anti-union legislation. From court challenges to referendums, they discuss the tools that worked, the power of solidarity with other unions, the movement against Arizona's costly voucher program, and what Pennsylvania members can learn from it all.
Voiceover:
Welcome to Duty Free Lunch, the official podcast of the Pennsylvania State Education Association. Join us as we unpack the issues that matter most to you. From cutting edge classroom strategies to though-provoking policy discussions, if it impacts PSEA members, it's on the menu.
Aaron Chapin:
Hello, and welcome to Duty Free Lunch. I'm PSEA president, Aaron Chapin. Today, I am joined by the treasurer of PSEA, Rachael West. How you doing, Rachael?
Rachael West:
I'm doing great. How are you?
Aaron Chapin:
I was going to combine treasure and Rachael into Trachael.
Rachael West:
Trachael? Sure. Let's go with it.
Aaron Chapin:
Very professional. You know what I was thinking this morning as I was exercising?
Rachael West:
What's that?
Aaron Chapin:
Who would play you in a movie? If they, because they probably are, they're going to make this into a movie.
Rachael West:
They're going to make this PSEA officer-
Aaron Chapin:
So who's playing you in a movie? Never thought about this.
Rachael West:
I have never thought about this before. Who's the snarkiest actress I can think of off the top of my head? And I'd pick somebody like that.
Aaron Chapin:
Oh, what about the one that was... She was on Saturday Night Live.
Rachael West:
That's literally who I was just thinking of. And she's in Bridesmaids?
Aaron Chapin:
Yes. Yes, yes. I don't remember her name. She's a great-
Rachael West:
Christina Wig. Kristen Wiig.
Aaron Chapin:
No. Her?
Rachael West:
Kristen Wiig? Yeah, Kristen Wiig.
Aaron Chapin:
You're going to go with Kristen Wiig?
Rachael West:
I am. I need all the snark. Who are you thinking of?
Aaron Chapin:
For you?
Rachael West:
Yeah.
Aaron Chapin:
I actually couldn't come up with anybody.
Rachael West:
All right. So who would you pick? Who would play you in a movie?
Aaron Chapin:
I actually hadn't even gone down... I was just thinking about you, so I don't know. I was just out.
Rachael West:
Now this is going to be, listen-
Aaron Chapin:
Maybe Jeff Goldblum.
Rachael West:
Listener response. Oh, Jeff Goldblum would be solid.
Aaron Chapin:
I mean, I was going to go with George Clooney, but he's starting to really look old.
Rachael West:
Right. And you look so much younger than him, so you don't want to pick somebody who looks old.
Aaron Chapin:
Jeff Goldblum, how's that one?
Rachael West:
I like that one.
Aaron Chapin:
All right.
Rachael West:
Solid.
Aaron Chapin:
Maybe Steve Martin. All right. Enough nonsense.
Rachael West:
Yeah, I think we got to move on here.
Aaron Chapin:
You're going to be stuck with that image in your head the whole time.
Rachael West:
I am. Thanks.
Aaron Chapin:
All right. Well, because we have a serious topic today.
Rachael West:
Okay.
Aaron Chapin:
All right. So again, all throughout September and October, we're doing weekly podcasts.
Rachael West:
Right.
Aaron Chapin:
And they're all election related because obviously this November we've got a big election at stake. And this is another one that is going to be really hopefully showing our listeners really just how important this upcoming election is because we are welcoming two union leaders and advocates who are representing tens of thousands of educators and support professionals in the great states of Arizona and Utah. In both states, these leaders have faced off against anti-union policymakers who attempted to undermine the ability of their members to come together, Rachael, as a union and advocate for strong contracts and pro-public education policies. So they're here today to tell all of our listeners, our members and everybody else who's listening about their experiences and what lessons we can learn from them as we advocate for our members here in Pennsylvania.
So I am thrilled to be bringing onto the podcast today, we've got Marisol Garcia. She is president of the Arizona Education Association. How are you doing, Marisol?
Marisol Garcia:
I'm doing really well. Thank you for the invite.
Aaron Chapin:
Is this a dream come true?
Marisol Garcia:
I woke up this morning just thrilled that I get to do this with you guys.
Aaron Chapin:
Who knew a year ago when we were hanging out in Maryland that this is where we'd be?
Marisol Garcia:
I would not have ever thought this. I'm very grateful.
Aaron Chapin:
Well, I'm thrilled to have you here. You are a fantastic leader and we've got another great leader joining us. It's Bonnie Billings. She is director of campaigns and elections for the Utah Education Association. Bonnie, how are you doing?
Bonnie Billings:
I'm doing well. Thanks so much for inviting us to do this. I love telling this story, so I'm excited to be here.
Aaron Chapin:
Well, and it's a great story. Is this a dream come true for you too?
Bonnie Billings:
Yeah. I mean, I'm hoping we go viral [inaudible 00:03:56]-
Aaron Chapin:
Oh really? Well, I'm hoping that this spreads. And I bet you we submit this podcast for those awards next spring.
Rachael West:
Oh, I think that's a great idea.
Aaron Chapin:
Got that DC? Yeah, he's giving a finger, and it's the right finger. So let's get started. Marisol Bonnie, welcome to the podcast. And we're going to start with you, Marisol. So earlier this year we had elected leaders in Arizona advance the ballot referral that if passed by voters would undermine the foundational work of your union as well as other public sector unions. Can you tell us a little bit about what they were proposing and how AEA mobilized against that?
Marisol Garcia:
Yeah. I mean, in our state, we've had 60 years of anti-public education leadership and control in our legislature. So we have 60 years where we haven't been able to have a full team of people that care deeply about public education. And earlier in the year, we had decided to do a voter initiative that was going to help repeal at least parts of our voucher program, which has been disastrous. And seeing how strong we were moving and organizing, the legislature decided to drop a referral that would appear on this November ballot that would strip pretty much any part, any contract that currently exists.
We are currently a right to work state, but what that bill would do is get rid of every single part of it. We couldn't send emails, we couldn't meet, we couldn't do payroll deductions. It was all wrapped together by national organizations that are trying to rid the country of public sector unions. We fought really hard. I mean, it was a very difficult thing to do. We really worked with every single union in this state to put pressure. Unfortunately, it passed and we had to lean on the third branch of government, the judicial branch, and they actually came through because the bill was written sloppily, but it is not done. It more than likely will come back next year, next session. And so we are organizing our election work to make sure to get rid of some of these folks that targeted our workers.
Rachael West:
So you said it was actually struck down by the courts then?
Marisol Garcia:
Yes.
Rachael West:
Okay. So what was your member reaction at that time? I know you're saying you're still going to have to mobilize against whatever the next wave, but what was the reaction when the court struck that down?
Marisol Garcia:
I think there was a deep, like a holding, like a gas call almost because there was no reason for us to be attacked. The reason why they're attacking us is they're afraid of us. They're afraid that our union is growing. They're afraid that we are bargaining at a local level despite it being a right to work state. They're scared of the implication of educators using their voice collectively with parents. We were holding multiple meetings, statewide meetings, local meetings with local leaders across the state. I think what was the best thing to come out of it, if anything, is I've never seen union solidarity ever in the state of... I've lived here 20 years and I've worked with every union side by side, but this was like straight up wall. You came after them, you're coming after all of us. And I've never felt that working as an educator in this state.
It does feel like we're segmented, but everyone from the musicians union all the way to the Teamsters, UFCW, AFL, the entire AFL CIO, we all got locked in arms. I think that gave our members bravery to fight that they didn't feel alone. And that does happen when you're the only adult in your workplace sometimes.
Aaron Chapin:
But if everybody hadn't bonded together, obviously the worst would've actually happened. Go ahead.
Marisol Garcia:
You're correct. You're correct. And I think the worst part, I think what made our members feel strength was if they're defending us, then that means we have other fights that we can fight together. This is not the only one. There are multiple fights and it's new relationships. In our state, I've never been able to really connect with the firefighters. And here I am sitting at tables learning about their workplace or learning about our workplace, and we are able to grow from that power.
Aaron Chapin:
Awesome. Awesome silver lining. We're going to shift it to you now, Bonnie. So take us back to February of 2025. The legislation was passed in Utah to prohibit public school employees and public workers from engaging in collective bargaining. Hard to believe that is something that a state could do, but it happened. And so when that bill, Bonnie, it passed, what did Utah Education Association do to mobilize members?
Bonnie Billings:
Yeah, so I remember sitting in the Senate gallery when it was before the Senate or on the Senate floor and when it passed, which it passed basically along the same lines that we though it would with our vote width. But I remember walking out of those doors after it passed going, "Well, the next few months of my life are going to be a lot as they come up." I knew that was what was going to happen. We did have the benefit. They had been trying to pass a bill like this for the past three sessions. And so we had had a lot of preparation with our members on getting them ready prior to the bill even passing. We had developed a communications plan in October of 2024 that led us through session and then through to what we had to do with that referendum. We didn't expect we had to do referendum.
That was something that we did have to kind of pull together, but we did have really strong message discipline and message strategy through session. And so even through session, they rushed this bill. This bill was introduced, passed and was signed by the governor within two weeks of session beginning. So it was fast tracked. It went really quickly. And we had record amounts of members, not just UEA members, but that was a big primary piece of that, but also other public sector union members flooding the lines at the Capitol. We had representatives basically asking us to make it stop. We do know that for when it was on the desk of Governor Cox to sign, we had almost 12,000 emails sent to Governor Cox to ask him to meet with. We pulled together a rally at the Capitol within 24 hours that had upwards of 1500 people show up.
And this was all because we'd prepared for it. We were getting into that space, getting those members ready to go. And so yeah, we were able to get that pulled together really quickly, but that was because we had them prepared for months that this was coming. And I wanted to kind of reiterate what Marisol had said about connecting with our other labor unions.
Our members are teachers. They're in the classroom during the sessions, during when these things are on the floor. And so we did rely a lot on our partner unions to be the people who showed up during the day at the capital meetings and that kind of thing. And that gave that inspiration to teachers to show up when they were able to as well. So it was just this big preparation with our members and that's kind of how we were able to organize as quickly as we needed to for this.
Rachael West:
So Bonnie, you must have obviously had a lot of contact with members and with having 12,000 emails sent and 1500 people showing up at a rally more or less at the last minute. What was the energy like with the folks that you were speaking to? Were they scared about this? Were they angry? Were they just ready to be mobilized? What kind of reactions were you getting from folks as you were talking to them?
Bonnie Billings:
I think it was a big mix of being angry and fired up. I think that's the biggest piece of this mostly because they communicated so much and so effectively during those two weeks of the session with this bill being fast tracked and they were not heard. And that was something I think that was really a slap in the face for sure. I mean, knowing when we would have conversations with legislators, they were like, "If I got a hundred emails, I maybe could find one or two that were in favor of this bill. Everybody else was opposed to it." But yet this deeply unpopular piece of legislation passed so quickly with so much opposition that of course everybody was really upset and really angry. Why weren't we not listened to? We teach your children, why weren't we heard in this process? And so they were angry and that fired them up to be working as hard as they did for the referendum piece of that campaign.
Aaron Chapin:
As I hear both of these stories from your states, the one thing that really kind of rings true and strikes me is that it would have been easy really just to throw your hands up, give up, but that's not what happened. That's not what our great unions do. So Marisol, what's it about your members that kept them going even though they were facing off against really powerful elected leaders? Why didn't they stop? Why didn't they just give up?
Marisol Garcia:
Yeah. I mean, honestly, Aaron, we're Arizona union educators, so it's not easy just walking in. We're traditionally at the bottom of the line when it comes to funding. We have to battle to even have paid lunch. We don't even have that constitutionalized anywhere. We have to bargain for that at a local level. I think one thing that's interesting about being a veteran educator, and I'm sure you both would agree, is that our red lines get crossed very early on on what's acceptable for ourselves and our workplace and for our students. We lack resources, we lack respect, we lack the ability to even have efficacy in what we're teaching. And I think the hardest thing to come to terms with is our profession, the threshold for exploitation is so much higher than any other workplace. My sister who works for corporations, we don't have enough paper. Are you kidding me? That would never happen, but we accept it here in Arizona and across the country.
But I think more and more the view into corruption, this is not a partisan issue, it's a policy issue. It's a political issue. We care deeply about policy. And I think what's coming clearer and clearer is that the only people are going to save us is ourselves. The politicians aren't going to save us. We're a huge part of the community and despite being exploited and exhausted, there has to be enough. And people start to push back when they're frustrated. They get sick and tired of being sick and tired until they start to push. And it's inspiring to see. It really is inspiring to see.
Rachael West:
I'm listening to Marisol talk about the community and even your other unions outside of education. And Bonnie, you said some of the same that your community and you leaned on some of the other unions that were able to be there at the time. And I just have some details here. And one of the things I read that just kind of blew my mind, you had 320,000 signatures and that's like 10% of your state. So obviously it wasn't just the educators and it's really impressive. So when you and your colleagues sat down and started planning this, did you have any sense that it was going to be that grand of a scale? Did you know going in? Did you plan for bigger and this is actually smaller? How did that look for you?
Bonnie Billings:
No, this was a surprise to all of us. Utah has some of the strictest, most hardest, that was a great way to say that, but the strictest laws regarding ballot initiatives and referendum in the country. So we had 30 days to collect 140,748,000 signatures across the state of Utah. And we had to meet thresholds in 15 out of our 29 Senate districts in order to qualify for the ballot. And that made it so we do have a population center within Utah, which is a 90-mile corridor called the Wasatch Front and that's kind of our urban area where we do have some Senate districts that would be favorable to something like this.
But because of that 15 Senate district threshold, we had to meet it outside of this urban area, this urban district here. And so that was a really daunting task. How do we reach into rural Utah and have them care about this? How do they show up? And so there was a lot that felt really daunting and impossible about this for sure. We ended up meeting the threshold in 23 out of the 29 Senate districts in Utah. So that means it was all across the state and our volunteer piece of this turned into 35% of those signatures, which is so impressive and so huge. But yeah, I mean there were moments too, even during this 30 days.
And I know that when I say this, when we got to our second week, we were really concerned we weren't going to make it because it feels like such a small truncated timeline, but it did feel like a lifetime at that point. But it was about in between weeks two and three that we though we had a big storm that was happening. We had a lot of our teachers who were on spring break. We had a bunch of things kind of not working in our favor, goals weren't being met. And I was like, "Oh my God, we are going to lose this. We're not going to make this happen."
And so we used that opportunity to sound the alarm bells with our leaders and say, "Look, we've got to really strap in for the last two weeks, the last 10 days on this and we've got to get this done." And then they just started flooding in these petitions. We are also lucky that we have the benefit of a lot of the volunteers were educators and they follow directions very, very well. So we had very few signatures thrown out. And so we were able to turn in really good signatures as well. They followed all the rules. We were able to train on a huge scale. We had trained 5,000 volunteers and we had almost 5,000 people in the state passing around petitions, but there was no sense that it would be that successful.
I thought for sure that we would barely make the 15th Senate, that we would be able to turn in and meet that threshold. But then there is also part of the law is that we have 30 days to collect signatures, but the opposition has 45 days to rescind signatures. So they can run a campaign to take signatures off and get us disqualified in these Senate districts. And so we were preparing to have to defend against that, but by the time we turned in all these signatures and they were verified, the opposition said, "We are not going to be able to do this." So they abandoned all efforts and there was no rescission campaign effort as well. And that was very unexpected prepared for having to defend against that. So yeah, it was really, really surprising that it was that scale. I wasn't surprised that there was support for this effort, but to that scale it was pretty incredible.
And like I said, we had to get 140,000 verified signatures. We turned in 321,000 signatures. And ultimately we had verified 251,000 signatures.
Aaron Chapin:
Amazing.
Bonnie Billings:
So 100,000 stickers over the threshold, which is incredible.
Aaron Chapin:
So Marisol, look, I know you pretty well. I know there's no bigger union person than you, but did you come away with, from this experience with a better understanding, even greater than you have now, what it means to be part of a union?
Marisol Garcia:
Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I fell in love with being in a union is the importance of workplace organizing and how different it is from community organizing and electoral organizing. In workplace organizing is really kind of connecting on the similar experiences that you may have with your employer and/or just the working conditions. It's very different and it allows you to kind of keep out stereotypes, misbeliefs, misunderstandings of each other because you see each other as workers in collective space.
And I never really had the opportunity to do that with other unions. I don't really understand what it's like to work in a warehouse, what it's like to work at a firehouse. I don't understand, but through this process, what I was able to gather is that, man, we have so much more in common and we've been split apart strategically, surgically, by politicians. Talking to the firemen leader president, he's a really cool guy, but he just said, "We're not really aligned with you guys because you're too much into socialism."
And I thought, "We're just getting... Okay, wait." And so he started to unpack it. When he started to understand the constraints of our ability to even utilize social media, because we could get in trouble for saying something for the fact that of course I care about keeping our students safe, he also wants to make sure that people that they're going into a house are safe. We have so much more in common, but he's been fed misinformation by politicians. And what I realized is there's so many more of us that are connected and I'm going to continue to take opportunities to work closer with those guys than I ever have before.
Aaron Chapin:
Good lessons. What about you, Bonnie? Same question. Have you better understanding what it means to be part of a union?
Bonnie Billings:
Yeah, absolutely. I think the biggest thing goes back to that union solidarity with other unions as well. That was one of the biggest takeaways from this. It was basically we had every single public sector union part of our Protect Utah Workers Coalition as well as private unions as well, even though this still did not affect private unions. The private unions were part of this effort, a huge part of this effort. We wouldn't have been able to do it without them. Those relationships really did lead to the really ultimate success of this when they repealed the law in December of 2025. They did try to meet with the firefighters. They tried to meet with the police officers to say, "Can we do something that protects you guys? Can we still do these kinds of things?"
And both the firefighters and the police stood strong. They said, "No, an attack on one is an attack on all." This is what a union is. And so that's one of the biggest takeaways that I took from this is just that there may be little ideological issues that do exist between the different unions and that kind of thing, but when it comes to the big overarching philosophies of what being a union is, how union membership matters, we align on that and we are stronger together and we do exist as union siblings with each other. And so that is one of the things that we're going to keep going in Utah is this coalition and not really protect Utah workers because that serves a specific purpose, but the same unions, the same decision makers in the room and keep that coalition going because that is what made us so powerful.
Aaron Chapin:
That's right.
Rachael West:
That's awesome. So Marisol, I have a final question for you. In Arizona, you have a universal private school voucher program and it's very costly to your taxpayers, and AEA has been advocating for a number of reforms to it. I think that's what prompted your ballot referral targeting your union for this work. So what is next for your advocacy efforts around this voucher reform in Arizona?
Marisol Garcia:
Yeah. I mean, I'll say it for everyone in the back who hasn't heard it. Vouchers are a scam in every way possible to our entire country, to every local community. It is a scam. It is a grift to take taxpayer money and give it to privileged folks and take away and set our house on fire.
What we're doing in Arizona is we are really organizing to flip out some of the events. The only way for us to contain this is either directly to the Ballot Beer Initiative, which we tried, spent $8 million trying to do it, but it was kicked off. However, flipping the legislature is the most important thing to us. Without a majority of people who care deeply about public education, this program will continue. Right now it has 64,000 families in it, but it is already taken up a billion dollars in the last year. And that's all money that is coming out of our general funds. So it's not set aside for it's impacting every single person in this state.
And definitely do a little research in it. You could even Google a really great editorial that Senator Mark Kelly wrote to kind of share why it's not even something that the federal government should be getting involved in. It is not going to save us. It's going to hurt all of us. And so flipping the legislature is the most important thing for us to do to continue to try to keep this fight up to get rid of vouchers.
Aaron Chapin:
Hear that Pennsylvania? Vouchers are bad.
Rachael West:
A scam even.
Aaron Chapin:
Yes, and it's true.
Marisol Garcia:
Scam.
Aaron Chapin:
We use Arizona as an example all the time, Marisol. It's unfortunate we have to use you as an example, but you keep fighting it back. It's a grift and it's a horrible, horrible thing to do to the citizens of your state, let alone in any state. So listen, we could have talked for a lot longer. I wish we had a lot more time. Unfortunately, that's it for today. So our guests have been Marisol Garcia and Bonnie Billings. We thank you very much for the great work you're doing in the states of Arizona and Utah. Marisol, thank you very much.
Marisol Garcia:
Thanks guys. Thanks for having us on.
Aaron Chapin:
Oh my God, what a privilege it was for us, Bonnie. Thank you very much for all the work you and your staff are doing there in Utah.
Bonnie Billings:
Thank you.
Aaron Chapin:
You got it. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. Hope you learned something today. This is what can happen in every state of the nation, right, Rachael?
Rachael West:
Absolutely.
Aaron Chapin:
Every state, it can happen. You got feedback for us? You got to share it by sending us an email to podcast@psea.org. I'm Aaron Chapin.
Rachael West:
And I'm Rachael West.
Aaron Chapin:
And you have been listening to Duty Free Lunch. Bye for now.
Voiceover:
You've been listening to Duty Free Lunch with the Pennsylvania State Education Association. Visit psea.org/podcast to learn more. And don't forget to subscribe and share. Paid for by the Pennsylvania State Education Association.