In the 2024 election, about 1.9 million Pennsylvanians voted by mail — out of more than 7 million voters. With another election weeks away, Jonathan Marks, Pennsylvania’s Deputy Secretary for Elections & Commissions, and Deborah Hinchey, the Pennsylvania State Director for All Voting is Local, join Duty Free Lunch to discuss voting by mail, including what voters need to know to ensure their ballots are submitted and counted properly.
In the 2024 election, about 1.9 million Pennsylvanians voted by mail — out of more than 7 million voters. With another election weeks away, Jonathan Marks, Pennsylvania’s Deputy Secretary for Elections & Commissions, and Deborah Hinchey, the Pennsylvania State Director for All Voting is Local, join Duty Free Lunch to discuss voting by mail, including what voters need to know to ensure their ballots are submitted and counted properly.
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Welcome to Duty Free Lunch, the official podcast of the Pennsylvania State Education Association. Join us as we unpack the issues that matter most to you. From cutting edge classroom strategies to though-provoking policy discussions, if it impacts PSEA members, it's on the menu.
Aaron Chapin:
Hello, and welcome to Duty-Free Lunch. I'm PSEA President Aaron Chapin. Today, I've got a special guest host with me. I'm here with PSEA's new communications manager, Chris Lilienthal. Chris, how you doing?
Chris Lilienthal:
I am doing great, Aaron. Thank you.
Aaron Chapin:
How's the new job going?
Chris Lilienthal:
It is going really, really well. I've been in this role since the last week of July, and about a week in, Jim Vaughn, our executive director, asked me how I was doing. And I said, "Jim, it's a little bit like being in the movie Everything Everywhere All At Once."
Aaron Chapin:
Oh, okay.
Chris Lilienthal:
There's a lot going on and communications, we connect with a lot of different departments across PSEA and we have our hands in a lot of projects and it's been really good. We got a great team. So yeah, so far, so good.
Aaron Chapin:
I know you stepped into the job at a very odd part of the year and there's a lot going on this November.
Chris Lilienthal:
Yeah, absolutely. As you've talked about on this podcast, we've been doing a series of press conferences educating members of the public as well as our PSEA members about Project 2025 and what that means for public education. And the response has been really, really, really positive to those events. I think people want to understand what's going on. You see something happening in Congress or in the legislature, you get a 300-page bill, what does it mean? And that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to demystify.
Aaron Chapin:
Well, you've been doing a great job. You and the communications team have been doing a great job. You've been doing so much this year of 2026. I greatly appreciate it. And everybody out there, I think we've talked about it from time to time. Chris is the one that gets me prepped up when I've got to go on TV or go do a public speaking thing. And so Chris, I though it'd be great if you could join me today and talk about this very important topic. Everybody, we're going to be talking about voting by mail. I know you're thinking, "Really?" Yeah, it's really that important. Chris, tell me, and I bet you know because you probably wrote this script. How many people in Pennsylvania do you think voted by mail-in ballot in 2024? Any guess?
Chris Lilienthal:
Mail-in ballot in 2024?
Aaron Chapin:
Yes.
Chris Lilienthal:
Oh gosh, Aaron, maybe about two million.
Aaron Chapin:
Wow, Chris. And it's right there in front of you. We even wrote it. It's about 1.9 million Pennsylvanians, Chris. I know you knew this. They voted by mail in 2024. So out of more than seven million voters, that's almost two million. That's a huge number. It's a lot of Pennsylvanians voting by mail-in ballot, which includes obviously Chris, a lot of our PSEA members.
Chris Lilienthal:
Absolutely.
Aaron Chapin:
So what we're going to do is a little voter education today with a couple of experts who know a lot about voting by mail. They're going to walk us through everything we need to know to make sure that if you are voting by mail, or maybe right now you're sitting at lunch, you're about to go into school and you're going to talk with your colleagues, you can share this information. We want to make sure that your ballots are being submitted and counted properly.
So joining us today, we've got Jonathan Marks. He's Pennsylvania's deputy secretary for Elections and Commissions. And we've got Deborah Hinchey, that's Pennsylvania's state director for All Voting is Local. Chris, we've got some big time guests today.
So Jonathan, Deb, welcome to the podcast.
Jonathan Marks:
Good morning. Thank you, Aaron. Thank you, Chris.
Aaron Chapin:
Deb, welcome.
Deborah Hinchey:
Good morning. Thank you so much.
Aaron Chapin:
There you go. All right. So we're going to start with you, Deb. Tell us a little bit about the work of your organization, All Voting is Local.
Deborah Hinchey:
Hi, I'm Deborah. I'm the state director at Pennsylvania for All Voting is Local. And in that job, I am the facilitator of PA Voters Decide, which is Pennsylvania's voting rights, election protection, election defense coalition. So I help facilitate a coalition of about 50 to 70 organizations depending on the time of the year that are also fighting to make sure that voters in Pennsylvania can vote easily and that it is accessible and that it feels safe for them to do so. And then that all voters can vote and then all votes are counted and then all elections are certified. And that is work we do all year long and gets a little crazier around election time, but it is all year long work that is being done by dozens and dozens of organizations all over the state.
Aaron Chapin:
And super important work, especially in this day and age.
Jonathan, as deputy secretary for elections and commissions, what's your primary responsibilities when it comes to making sure our elections are safe, secure, and run smoothly?
Jonathan Marks:
Well, my primary responsibilities, the department's primary responsibilities are to work with our county election officials. I would say we have some level of oversight over elections, but I think it's important for people to remember that county boards of elections and local election officials, precinct officials are the ones who are actually running elections. So these are your friends and neighbors who are running elections in Pennsylvania. We provide a lot of guidance, a lot of training. When it comes to election security, we're coordinating at the state level to keep our statewide voter registration database secure, to keep our voting systems secure through our voting system certification process. So that's really our role. We're not running elections day to day, but we are providing oversight and coordination at the state level.
Chris Lilienthal:
Fantastic. Yeah. Jonathan, we're here today obviously talking about voting by mail, and there's been a lot of discussion about this, not just in Pennsylvania, but across the country. There was a Supreme Court decision that I think we're going to talk about in a minute, but before we do that, set the stage for us. What does the law in Pennsylvania say about voting by mail?
Jonathan Marks:
The law in Pennsylvania is very clear. Anyone who wishes to vote by mail, whether they have a reason or an excuse as it were, is allowed to vote by mail and they simply have to make a request. They do have to provide identification information and some other details when they request that ballot, but everyone in Pennsylvania is entitled to vote by mail, whether they have a specific reason or not.
Aaron Chapin:
So Deb, let's talk about that big Supreme Court decision. What did the court rule with regard to voting by mail?
Deborah Hinchey:
There were many courts ruling on many things, but the one that's the most important to understand was the ruling that came in last week by the US Supreme Court. And the US Supreme Court ruled that the USPS was not able to engage in what they call rulemaking, which was an attempt to change the rules on how mail ballots are sent out and how they are processed. The Supreme Court ruled that the USPS was not able to change the rules this close to an election. In the decision, they did name the timeliness, how close we are to election day, but they also named that they did not believe that the case would succeed on its merits in the decision as well. So the Supreme Court ruled both it's too close to election day to be ruling on any changes to the mail balloting and mailing system, but they also implied that the case itself would likely not pass muster.
So what this means is that all mail ballots are being mailed out. Voters are receiving ballots all over the state. Our elections officials have in many, many counties have already begun mailing ballots so that voters would receive those ballots as early as possible. And we're hearing reports from all over the state that voters are receiving their ballots and they're voting already and mailing them back in.
Aaron Chapin:
That's great news, Chris.
Chris Lilienthal:
Yeah, it certainly is. So Jonathan, building on that, when you go out and you talk to voters and you talk about voting by mail, it's September, these ballots are going out. What should people be thinking about right now if they're planning to vote by mail?
Jonathan Marks:
I think what voters should be thinking about, aside from who they're going to vote for and the reasons why, is getting their ballots back to the county as quickly as possible. I think that's a message that we always tell voters, vote your ballot, get it back to your county. You can track the status of your ballot on our website through our ballot tracker. Just get it done as quickly as you can, get it back to your county so that you can rest easy that your ballot has been accepted and that it will be counted on election day.
Chris Lilienthal:
So don't wait till the last minute.
Jonathan Marks:
No, I'm human too, and I often wait until the last minute with a variety of things, but voting is not one of them.
Aaron Chapin:
Good idea. Good idea. Jonathan, I'm going to stay with you because mail-in ballots, obviously they could be mailed, hence the name mail-in ballots, but obviously voters have other options when it comes to submitting that ballot. How else can Pennsylvanians send in their mail-in ballots?
Jonathan Marks:
Well, Pennsylvanians can do a couple of things. If they've received their ballot through the mail and they want to return it, they can of course return it through the mail. They can also take it to their county election office. And a number of counties, I think about two dozen at last count, provide drop boxes at various locations in their county for voters to drop them off. And that way you know that the ballot is directly in the custody of the county. You don't have to wait for it to go through the mail. You can also, if you haven't received your ballot yet or haven't requested it, you can go to your county election office, request it there, receive it and make your selections and then turn it back in directly to the county. That way you have assurance that the county has custody of your ballot.
Aaron Chapin:
I guess I'm surprised that it's that few counties that actually have drop boxes.
Jonathan Marks:
Again, that is the latest count. We do a survey before each election, and I know sometimes the number of counties and the number of locations will fluctuate from one election to another. I think it is true that every county has some mechanism for you to return it to the county office. Whether they have other locations throughout the county varies from one county to another.
Aaron Chapin:
Interesting.
Chris Lilienthal:
Yeah. So Deb, going back to you, once a voter has taken care of casting their ballot, filling out their ballot and sending it in, what happens then? Do voters get some type of notification? Is there a way to track your ballot?
Deborah Hinchey:
Like Jonathan said, Jonathan mentioned this, the Department of State of Pennsylvania runs a really excellent website. I think it's pavoterservices.pa.gov where you're able to track your mail-in ballot. An overwhelming majority of counties, when they receive your mail ballot, are going to scan that ballot in and they're going to mark it first as received and then many counties will mark it as accepted. When they mark it as accepted, they're saying that you don't have any defects that they can tell on your ballot that would prevent that ballot from being counted. There are several counties in the state that aren't marking their ballots as received or marking them as accepted until election day, but the overwhelming majority of counties are notifying their voters. And when your ballot is marked as received and you have an email address on file with your voter registration, which all voters should, please add an email address to voters out there.
Please add an email address attached to your mail ballot application so that you can receive information about your ballot. You will receive an email if your ballot is marked as received, and then you'll receive another email that your ballot is marked as accepted. This is a really excellent feature that is part of the Department of State's tracking system that allows voters to be notified both that their ballots received or in a lot of counties where counties are trying to make sure that all voters' ballots are counted, that if there's a mistake on your ballot, you can be notified that there's a mistake on your ballot and you can go in and cure that ballot, which is to fix the mistake that may be on your ballot.
Chris Lilienthal:
Deb, I have a follow-up question on that about the emails. If the county has your email on file, do they follow up? In the next election will you get a heads-up, "Hey, here's how you can apply for your ballot?" Or maybe that's a question for you, Jonathan.
Deborah Hinchey:
Better question for Jonathan, but many people are on what's called the permanent mail ballot list. Now that doesn't mean that you get a ballot every cycle, but it does mean you're offered the opportunity to order a mail ballot every election. So voters are never sent a ballot without specifically requesting a ballot for that election, but they can add themselves to a list that tells the county to please always send me an application to order a mail ballot for the upcoming election.
Jonathan Marks:
So yes, Deb is absolutely correct about the permanent list. You do have to apply once a year. Counties are required by statute to send an application out to everyone who's on that permanent list annually, usually in February, early February. And if the voter returns it, they'll receive a ballot for every election they're entitled to vote in for the entire year and actually into the next February in the event there's a special election.
I did want to mention one thing that I forgot to mention earlier, it's an important thing for voters, remember to sign and date the outer envelope on your ballot. There's been a lot of litigation around that as you may know. So it's important that voters sign and put the date they voted their ballot on the envelope.
Aaron Chapin:
A good reminder, even for those of us that are experienced at doing it never hurts to get as many reminders as possible so that every vote's being counted. Let's say, Jonathan, though, I request a mail-in ballot. I decide though, I want to change my mind and I want to go vote in person. Can I do that?
Jonathan Marks:
You can. If you've received your ballot, you will have to take that ballot packet into the polling place with you on election day and turn it over to the local polling place officials there before you can vote in the traditional way. If for some reason you didn't receive your ballot or you lost your ballot, you can still vote on election day at your polling place, but you may be required to fill out a provisional ballot that will be reviewed later by the County Board of Election.
Aaron Chapin:
All right. So Deb, as an advocate, why is this issue so important to you? Why is it important for voters to have the option of voting by mail? Obviously you put a lot of time and dedication into this. Why is it so important to you?
Deborah Hinchey:
I feel like in this time and age, there's a lot of narratives around voting. And for me as an advocate and as an organizer for voters, one of my main beliefs is that voting should be easy. All eligible voters should be able to vote and it should be accessible for them to be able to do so. Things like mail ballots, drop boxes, satellite election offices, extended hours so that voters can get their ballots after working hours, weekend hours. These are all mechanisms that make it as easy as possible for working people to vote. It should be the guiding principle for all advocates, for elections officials to what can we do to make it as easy and accessible for eligible working people to vote before election day on election day? Mail balloting is one of the single largest accessibility increases that we've had in Pennsylvania voting in the last 50 years.
The number of people that are using it, just like you all mentioned at the beginning, 1.9 million people used mail balloting to vote in the 2024 general election. This is a mechanism of voting that people are using. It's not like we instituted it in 2019, 2020 and then people didn't use it. People are using it. They're using it to vote. They're using it so that they don't have to take a day off from work. They don't have to get childcare. This is the single easiest mechanism that we've put in front of working class Pennsylvanians to make it easier for them to vote. And we should be doing as much as we can to keep making it easier.
The mail balloting is safe and secure. The Department of State and our elections officials have created a system that is secure and is safe, and we should be doing everything that we can to improve that system in service of making it easier for eligible voters to vote.
Aaron Chapin:
That is the goal. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to actually go back over to Jonathan before I give you the next question, Chris. Jonathan, obviously this is your job. You work all the time with elections. Why is this issue so important to you? I mean, it was great for you to come across the street and talk with us today. Why is it such a big deal to you too?
Jonathan Marks:
For me, I think it's really about making sure that every eligible Pennsylvanian has an opportunity to vote. As Deb said, this has been the largest increase in accessibility to voting in decades. So it's important to me. I do the functions of the work and I enjoy it, but I also, my passion is making sure that voters have an opportunity to vote. And it doesn't mean we care any less about election integrity. But, this is a safe and secure method of voting. It's been in place since the Civil War. Society has changed quite a bit since the Civil War, so expanding this method of voting I think is appropriate. And as Deb said, people are using it. So we know this is something that benefits voters.
Aaron Chapin:
I love it. Chris, he said safe and secure.
Chris Lilienthal:
Those are golden words.
Aaron Chapin:
You got it, Chris. Yeah.
Chris Lilienthal:
Hey, so it's bonus question time. I have one final question here for Jonathan. In your role, you go out and you talk a lot with members of the public about this issue, about other issues. Is there any recurring sort of misconceptions or confusion that you hear about voting by mail that you want to set the record straight?
Jonathan Marks:
I think in terms of myths or misconceptions, I think with some folks that we talk to, there's the misconception that it is not secure, that anybody requested or ballots are just being sent to people without a request. So I often have to remind people that there is an identification requirement. When you apply for your ballot, you have to provide either your driver's license or the last four digits of your Social Security number, and those have to be verified. And if they can't be verified, you'll still get your ballot, but it won't be counted. If you turn it back in, it won't be counted until either the county can verify that ID or you present some other form of ID to the county that proves who you are. So we're often reminding people that it is a secure way of voting and that we have mechanisms in place and the counties have mechanisms in place to make sure that the votes that are being counted are from eligible citizens.
Aaron Chapin:
Wow. Amen.
Chris Lilienthal:
Super important. Yeah.
Aaron Chapin:
Well, this has been an amazing episode for us. We're all out of time today, but our guests today have been Jonathan Marks and Deborah Hinchey. So thank you very much for the work that you're doing when it comes to voter education and for joining us today. Listen, this is a topic that is important. It's been so much in the news, not just this year. It seems like it's been in the news every year for quite a long time. Again, we are putting episodes out every week right now up until early November. We're trying to educate the public on everything that's related to this upcoming election cycle. So we really appreciate both of you coming in and sharing your knowledge. So Jonathan, thank you for sharing your time and your knowledge with us today.
Jonathan Marks:
Great. Thank you for having me, Aaron.
Aaron Chapin:
You got it. And Deborah, thank you very much. We really appreciate all the advocacy and all the work that you do on making this election season as successful as possible.
Deborah Hinchey:
Thank you so much.
Aaron Chapin:
You got it. Thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in again. You got some feedback for us? Please share it by sending us an email to podcast@psea.org. I'm Aaron Chapin.
Chris Lilienthal:
I'm Chris Lilienthal.
Aaron Chapin:
And you have been listening to Duty Free Lunch. Bye for now.
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You've been listening to Duty Free Lunch with the Pennsylvania State Education Association. Visit psea.org/podcast to learn more and don't forget to subscribe and share. Paid for by the Pennsylvania State Education Association.