Aaron and Jeff sit down with State Sen. Steve Santarsiero and PSEA Legislative Committee Chair Mike Cherinka to dig into Senate Bill 1014, Pennsylvania's proposed bell-to-bell cellphone ban for public schools. They talk about what the bill would actually require, how PSEA's position evolved over 18 months of member-driven discussions, and why a bill that passed the Senate 46-1 might just be the rare thing everyone can agree on.
Aaron and Jeff sit down with State Sen. Steve Santarsiero and PSEA Legislative Committee Chair Mike Cherinka to dig into Senate Bill 1014, Pennsylvania's proposed bell-to-bell cellphone ban for public schools. They talk about what the bill would actually require, how PSEA's position evolved over 18 months of member-driven discussions, and why a bill that passed the Senate 46-1 might just be the rare thing everyone can agree on.
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Voiceover:
Welcome to Duty Free Lunch, the official podcast of the Pennsylvania State Education Association. Join us as we unpack the issues that matter most to you. From cutting edge classroom strategies to thought-provoking policy discussions, if it impacts PSEA members, it's on the menu.
Aaron Chapin:
Hello and welcome to Duty Free Lunch. I'm PSEA President Aaron Chapin. Joining me today, it's PSEA Vice President Jeff Ney. Hello, Jeff.
Jeff Ney:
Hi, Aaron. How are we doing today?
Aaron Chapin:
It is a miserable week here in Harrisburg.
Jeff Ney:
Well, it's one of those like-
Aaron Chapin:
It's like we're in a rut.
Jeff Ney:
Well, it's March. The weather kind of gets that way a little bit, but the snow's melting.
Aaron Chapin:
Well, yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Ney:
Because of the rain.
Aaron Chapin:
All the brown snow is gone. And now there's nothing but cigarette butts everywhere.
Jeff Ney:
Yeah. Well-
Aaron Chapin:
Here in Harrisburg.
Jeff Ney:
Here in Harrisburg. Yeah.
Aaron Chapin:
Yes, it is. Well, spring's almost here.
Jeff Ney:
It is almost here.
Aaron Chapin:
You know what that means?
Jeff Ney:
No. What does that mean?
Aaron Chapin:
We are going to get super knee-deep in legislative.
Jeff Ney:
Oh, it's a great time of year.
Aaron Chapin:
There's a lot of legislative stuff going on, and there's good stuff going. That's today's focus. One of these specific bills that we're really eager and optimistic is going to be making it out, and something that we really believe passionately in. So today, we are tackling an issue that's really sparking serious conversation, not just in schools in Pennsylvania, but across the country, and yes, Jeff, the world.
Jeff Ney:
The world.
Aaron Chapin:
The world, even Antarctica.
Jeff Ney:
Hey, your cell phone's going off. Do you have to answer that?
Aaron Chapin:
No, I do not.
Jeff Ney:
Oh, okay.
Aaron Chapin:
No, no, no. Listen, we all know this is serious though. Look, it's student cell phone use during the school day.
Jeff Ney:
Yeah.
Aaron Chapin:
It's a big problem.
Jeff Ney:
It is. It is.
Aaron Chapin:
And we've got two great guests today. They're going to be discussing this issue with us. You want to know who one of them is?
Jeff Ney:
I'd love to know who both of them are.
Aaron Chapin:
Well, it's our old buddy from the Northeastern region.
Jeff Ney:
Oh.
Aaron Chapin:
Our pal, Mike Cherinka, a computer science teacher at the Dallas High School in Luzerne County.
Jeff Ney:
Go Mountaineers.
Aaron Chapin:
Oh my goodness. Mike also serves as the chair of PSEA's Legislative Committee, which is the group responsible for reviewing bills introduced by state lawmakers, and recommending positions for our organization. Yep. How you doing there, Mike?
Mike Cherinka:
I'm doing great. Another long day at-
Aaron Chapin:
It's great to have you on the podcast. Did you ever think this would be possible 15 years ago?
Mike Cherinka:
No. Absolutely not.
Jeff Ney:
As Mike goes back to the time it goes, we were sitting in the Northeast region office and we were probably acting like goofs back then, too.
Aaron Chapin:
That's right.
Mike Cherinka:
Well, first of all, the two of you in charge, I never saw coming either.
Aaron Chapin:
Wow. You might be the first guest that's ever insulted us on the air. Good job.
Jeff Ney:
That wasn't an insult.
Aaron Chapin:
That was an insult.
Jeff Ney:
You took it.
Aaron Chapin:
No, that was an insult.
Jeff Ney:
No.
Aaron Chapin:
Yes, it was. Hey, even more important-
Jeff Ney:
Yes.
Aaron Chapin:
It's hard to believe anybody more important than Mike.
Jeff Ney:
Yes.
Aaron Chapin:
We're being joined today by state Senator Steve Santarsiero. He's a former teacher.
Jeff Ney:
Yes.
Aaron Chapin:
Did you know that?
Jeff Ney:
I did.
Aaron Chapin:
A MPSEA member who now represents the 10th Senatorial District there in Bucks County. The Senator is co-priming Senate Bill 1014, alongside Senators Devin Robinson and Vincent Hughes.
And this bill seeks to establish a consistent statewide bell-to-bell cell phone ban in public schools. In short, Jeff, prohibit use and restriction, and restrict possession throughout the school day.
Jeff Ney:
Yep.
Aaron Chapin:
Senator, how are you, sir?
State Sen. Steve Santarsiero:
I'm doing well, Aaron. Thank you for having me on. Jeff, it's good to see you and Mike as we meet virtually at least. While the weather may not be great in Harrisburg, I will tell you, it's always sunny here in Bucks County.
Jeff Ney:
Oh, is it?
Aaron Chapin:
I think that's on a sign when you drive into Bucks County.
Jeff Ney:
I think so, right there on the terminal.
Aaron Chapin:
Always sunny in Bucks County. Listen, this cell phone legislation, Jeff, it's truly bipartisan effort.
Jeff Ney:
It is.
Aaron Chapin:
And it's been this way from the start. With the bill originally passing the Senate 46 to 1.
Jeff Ney:
Yeah. How about that?
Aaron Chapin:
When was the last time anything got passed in the Senate 46 to 1?
Jeff Ney:
I can't remember anything.
Aaron Chapin:
I don't know, but it just shows there's a lot of support out there. And it's not something you see every day, is it, Senator, where you see that much support for something?
State Sen. Steve Santarsiero:
No. No, it really isn't. And I think, as you were saying, it kind of underscores the importance of this, and I think the general understanding that we need to get this passed.
Aaron Chapin:
Yeah. And so let's just get right into this. I'm going to start with you, Senator. Why don't you start by telling us a little bit more about Senate Bill 1014? And what does the bell-to-bell standard look like when we put it into practice?
State Sen. Steve Santarsiero:
Right. Thanks, Aaron. So at its heart, what this bill would do is prohibit students from using phones from bell-to-bell. That is to say from the time they get to school in the morning to the time that they leave at the end of the day. There are some exceptions for things like the ESL learners, kids with IEPs, limited exception for instructional use, and for a kind of field trip situation where the kids need to use it.
But otherwise, it's a prohibition on use, and it gives the districts the ability to restrict possession. Now, how they do that is up to the districts. And that's where we've heard the requests for more local control, and that's frankly where the school districts are going to have their local control, because we're not prescribing how they do this. They're really saying, "Okay, this is what the rule in Pennsylvania is going to be."
Jeff Ney:
Senator, I was lucky enough to be at the press conference when we rolled this out right after that vote. And you told a great story how you are personally committed to this issue. So my question is, was there a moment as a former educator or as a policymaker that solidified your position on this bill?
State Sen. Steve Santarsiero:
Yeah. Look, it's been a while since I've been in the classroom. Back the 17, I guess it's around 17, 18 years ago now. Back then, of course, the kids had flip phones. And you could see already it was starting to become a problem. But when I read Jonathan Haidt's book, The Anxious Generation, that just, for me, confirmed a lot of what I was seeing with younger people generally. Some of the things I'd seen with my own children who are now all in their 20s, that this is becoming increasingly a problem, and frankly, it's a problem for us as adults as well.
And the feedback I'd gotten from local teachers was, "We really do need to get these devices out of the school so that we can do our job." And the kids can do what's really important, which is actually learn socialization skills and how they navigate relationships, which is one of the things that Haidt talks about in the book as well. And so all of that kind of, to me, crystallized the need for us to act.
Jeff Ney:
Mike, before we actually get into the actual legislation for this bill, how about giving our listeners a little bit of background exactly how the Legislative Committee works? How do you get to a position on legislative bills that come across PSEA's desk?
Mike Cherinka:
Yeah, I'd be more than happy to. And once again, thanks for having me guys. It's a pleasure to be on this podcast, in all seriousness. And Senator, it's nice to meet you also.
And so the Legislative Committee, we have 40 members elected from around the state. And not just from around the state, but we also have all of our departments recognized, like our Department of People Services and our ESPs.
So we have a nice, I guess you say, diverse group from all across the state, 'cause every part of the state, they have their own different ideas on things and that's great. It's a big state, so it's nice to get input from everywhere.
We meet six times a year and we look at bills that pertain to anything that could affect our students, our teachers, our ESPs, and we kind of hammer them out and try and take a position on them.
And they all come from our GR staff, our government relations staff. So they get these bills, they look at them, our legal department looks at them, they ultimately come up with a recommendation that they feel go well with our ideals.
And then when they bring it to the teachers, we may have a different opinion on what those bills are than they do, coming from a classroom perspective or a nursing perspective, or a technical school, like anyone 'cause we all have different positions within our schools also.
And then we will take a position, we either agree with government relations or we'll take our own position as a Legislative Committee. And then it goes to you guys as the Board of Directors for the final sign-off, and you put your own spin on it and you could agree or disagree with our recommendation.
And then it goes back to somebody like you, Senator Steve, and then it gets discussed more, and then it may come back to us and then back and forth. And I think that's pretty much what happened with the bill we're talking about today.
Jeff Ney:
Yeah, we are a member-driven organization, so that just goes to show you.
Aaron Chapin:
Yeah, Steve. Mike, when did the Legislative Committee first seriously start considering a cell phone ban legislation? 'Cause I know that we've been dealing with it, when did they really start seriously considering that?
Mike Cherinka:
The first time we looked at anything pertaining to cell phones was back in the spring of 2024. I think we met in April of 2024, and it was a long discussion. It was pro, con, all in between discussion in the meeting.
And there really was no conclusion we came up with at the time. There was opinions on both sides. I would say actually at that time we were probably split down the middle as to full ban, partial ban, no ban, because we just didn't know how it could be enforced, like a bell-to-bell policy. We just didn't know how that was even possible at that time.
Jeff Ney:
All the years that I've spent here on the Board of Directors and as a PSEA officer, I don't think I've ever seen an issue where there was such an evolution of our position over that 18 month, as you said, back in '24, period. So Mike, what do you think? What drove the shift? What were the members wrestling with? What was the big issue?
Mike Cherinka:
I think one of the biggest conversations was the parents being used to the kids having phones and being able to contact them all throughout the eight hours of the day, seven, eight hours at school, a text here and there. Whereas when I started, and when you guys started teaching, it was maybe your kid, you called the office, the office called them down and they talked to them, but now the parents are getting so accustomed to reaching out to their kids and getting immediate feedback. That was one of the issues that we came up with.
And then the issue of, "What if there's an emergency and our kids don't have a phone and you need contact?" And so, all this stuff was being talked about. And it was legitimate concerns at the time, but in 18 months, things have gotten a lot crazier. When I started teaching 29 years ago to now, I was printing out PowerPoint slides on a transparency and putting it on the overhead projector.
Jeff Ney:
Over projector. Oh my goodness.
Aaron Chapin:
Well, I'm going-
Mike Cherinka:
So now, it's like...
State Sen. Steve Santarsiero:
Yeah, remember that.
Mike Cherinka:
Go ahead. I'm sorry.
Aaron Chapin:
No, go ahead. Finish up your thought.
Mike Cherinka:
So now, where I can actually just take my phone and cast it to my big touchscreen in front of my class, it's just totally... I mean, it's good, but we're seeing the negative side as far as when it comes to teaching and learning.
Aaron Chapin:
Well, I want to ask both of you the next question because, look, I'll admit, my own feelings on this legislation, it's evolved as well, just like it has for our members. And I'm kind of surprised, but I really have started to see a different side of it. Look, as many listeners know, I'm a parent, my kid is in college now, but when she was in high school, she had a smartphone.
I liked having that connection with her during the day. It's not like we were texting all day long, but there were times where it was really helpful. And now, it's a little bit different. So Senator, Mike as well, you're both parents, you're both educators, did you experience a similar change of heart over time? And Senator, I'll start with you. Did you change over time as well, just like I have?
State Sen. Steve Santarsiero:
Probably not. And here's the reason, and it's not that I'm a Luddite, but I've been observing for some time now, and it's been a concern of mine for some time now. As I said earlier, everyone in our society is getting way too distracted, not just by phones, but every other aspect of the technology that has us in the virtual world. And it is causing a problem in our politics, the algorithms that lead people down rabbit holes and curate a certain type of information that people continue to get. The tech companies that don't take responsibility for any of that.
And I think that's one of the reasons why we're in such a politically volatile time right now, but I also think it's a problem that is being felt in terms of increasing in isolation among people of all ages. And for kids in particular, the social media apps that really do put a whole new level of stress in their lives that didn't exist when we were kids.
Obviously, this legislation would not solve that completely, but it would at least provide them a window in the day, eight hours or so during the day, where they wouldn't have to deal with that. And my hope is that that might have a spillover effect into the rest of their daily existence, and maybe get parents and guardians to start being a little bit more mindful about this, both with their kids and for themselves.
And I'll say the other thing, Aaron, and I don't want to monopolize the time here, and certainly Mike's time as well, but this whole issue of having access when there's an emergency. I've told the story that when I was teaching at Bensalem High School, we had a lockdown one day. We had a, it turned out, a burglary very close to school, and the school went into lockdown, and we did what we were taught to do. We put the kids in the corner of the room, turned off the lights, locked the door.
And at that point, as I said, they all had flip phones, but they started texting their friends, they started texting their parents. And before you knew it, the word was that there was people with AR-15s roaming the halls, and that terrified everyone. And it turned out when this was resolved, that it was a burglary, that the police caught the parties responsible a few miles away from the school.
And there was never an immediate threat to any of the students or the people in the school. Now, the administration did the right thing. They locked us down because they didn't know at the time. But that story to me always reminded me that, look, it's a fallacy. These things do not help in those situations.
Teachers, administrators, they're all taught what to do in an emergency situation. We don't need this complicating thing. If anything, it can make first responders jobs harder. So no, I've always kind of been on the position that we all need to be putting these things down, and especially the kids.
Aaron Chapin:
Gotcha. What about you, Mike? Have you had the same opinion throughout this process or has it changed?
Mike Cherinka:
For me personally, it's changed. And Steve, you touched on a lot of different things. Things are running through my head as you're going about what I've experienced in the classroom. I too had kids that went through high school, and I would text them during the day, and it was just stuff that could have waited till after school. It wasn't necessarily an immediate thing, but you just get accustomed to doing it. And sometimes they'd yell at me like, "I was in class. I can't text you back."
And at that time, I was using it in my classroom, the technology, 'cause I teach Photoshop and Illustrator and they have the apps on the phone, and I was showing the kids that. So I was using it. And then I read a study out of Harvard, I think it was, where they had students take a test with their phone on them or next to them at the computer, and then they took the same test with the phone in a cabinet in the room, and then they took the test with the phone not even anywhere in the building, and you can just figure in your head which one they did better.
And so when I read that, I was like, "Wow, that's eye-opening." And I think we were behind the eight-ball when it came to social media as far as education. I didn't think at the time it was going to be as intense as it actually is today with some of the kids. To that point, with all the new stuff coming out, the AI, I think now, I think we're being more on the forefront and trying to get ahead of it instead of catching up to it.
So, I think we may have learned our last one with social media, but it's a problem, and I could see a lot of mental health issues with the kids when it comes to this. I would not want to be a middle schooler or a high schooler today with the stuff they have to deal with. And I know to talk about what the senator said about an emergency situation, we had one at my school where there was a potential gas leak in the back mount, and they were just venting the pipes.
It wasn't gas, but they didn't let the school district know that they were doing this, and parents were showing up, "I need to get my kid out of here. The place is going to explode." It just went crazy 'cause kids were texting their parents. And so yes, so when you talk about safety, which is safer, them being able to reach out to their parents or them just letting the teachers and the administration do what they're supposed to?
So, these are the discussions we had when we were discussing this bill. These are the same topics we talked about in the boardroom that night when we're trying to figure out a position on this bill. And to end this, I will say that there is a local school next to my district, pretty much they're adjacent, who put a policy in place, they got the Yondr pouches, and these kids can't have... They have their phones on them, but they're locked in the pouches. They can't access them. And they said for the first month it was a learning curve, but after that, even the kids are on board. So it's out there, it's been proven, and I think this is a step in the right direction.
Jeff Ney:
Mike, I'm going to go back in time, and I was part of that meeting as well when you had the discussion. And I remember one of the things that you put into the room is that if we were going to support this, it needed to be a true bell-to-bell standard.
But you also said a little bit earlier in this podcast that you emphasize flexibility with instructional purposes 'cause you use your own phone to throw things up on the smart board as well. So, how do we balance those two things together?
Mike Cherinka:
I don't need to use it.
Jeff Ney:
Okay.
Mike Cherinka:
I do because I can, but if we're doing a bell-to-bell policy, I'm going to do a bell-to-bell policy. I will not be the exception because then the kids are, "Well, I could use it in Mr. Cherinka's room. Why can't I use it in your room?" I don't want to be that guy. If we're going to do a bell-to-bell policy, I'll tell the kids how they can use it.
I may show them with my phone how they could use it, but I'm not going to let them bring out their phones and go photo shopping and going anywhere else that they might go at that time. So I will teach them how it's used, where they can use it, but I think if we're going to stick to bell-to-bell, that's going to be my thing with the exceptions that were mentioned with the IEPs and the ESL. Those are some of the things we talked about also, and I think those are legitimate concerns to be discussed.
Jeff Ney:
We're educators. We're going to educate how to use the phone properly in those cases.
Aaron Chapin:
All right. Senator, what does success look like if this legislation becomes law? So, what would you hope for teachers, students, parents, what are they going to notice a year from now? What does success look like?
State Sen. Steve Santarsiero:
Well, so first, we've drafted the bill so that if it were to pass, let's hope sometime this year, it would not take effect until the 2027, 2028 school year. So it gives schools plenty of time to prepare for this.
Success would look like kids really paying attention in class and interacting as part of the instructional time, and then actually talking to each other, and communicating. And doing all those things that at that stage in your life you need to do in terms of building relationships, and finding out what works and what doesn't work, and really living in the present as opposed to in some kind of virtual world.
So, I think what Mike just touched on, and I've heard this anecdotally too, because we have some schools right here in Bucks County that have already implemented not bell-to-bail, but at least instructional time bans. And even in those cases, we're hearing from a lot of the educators that, "Hey, this has really been transformative." And the kids, too.
And I want to underscore that too, because I know, Aaron, you were there and you did a great job, by the way, when we had that hearing on this issue. And I'm grateful for that because PSEA has... Since you all have taken this position, you've been really strong advocates, and make no mistake, I don't think the bill would be where it is without that.
But if you recall that day, we had those, I think two students who testified, and they were not enthusiastic about this idea, which was not a shock. But as it turns out, after these kids have experienced what it's like in these schools that have implemented it, they do actually come around and they... I think they describe it in some ways as a weight being lifted off their shoulders.
That's probably an aspect of not having the social media bombardment throughout the school day to give them a little bit more time to breathe and to live. And so to me, that would be success. And as I said earlier, if that spills over into life outside of school, and starts conversations with parents and guardians and others, well, all the better. That would be tremendous if so.
Jeff Ney:
Jeff, the average kid gets 264 of those notifications a day. That's a lot of distraction.
Aaron Chapin:
All right, Jeff. It's time for a bonus question. We're running really tight on time here.
Jeff Ney:
So Steve, the question is for you, on a scale of one to five, one being not going to happen, five being it's definitely going to happen, what are the chances that Senate Bill 1014 becomes law for that '27, '28 school year?
State Sen. Steve Santarsiero:
I'm going to say with a really good chance.
Jeff Ney:
Oh, he's not going to give any number.
State Sen. Steve Santarsiero:
I think we're going to be very close to five, but look, and the reason why I want to qualify it though, Jeff, is this, we do need to give the House its opportunity to fully vet this issue and have discussions about it. They are the co-equal other part of our legislative branch, and I respect that.
And so I don't want to try to handicap that too much, but I am optimistic because I do think there's a general recognition that this should be done. And it was great to hear the governor in his budget address come out pretty clearly for this, and I'm confident if the bill gets to his desk, he will sign it.
Jeff Ney:
Fantastic.
Aaron Chapin:
You got to ask Mike.
Jeff Ney:
Mike, what do you think? One to five?
Mike Cherinka:
What do I think?
Jeff Ney:
Yeah.
Mike Cherinka:
Well, I would hope it's a five, and I'm going to do my best to reach out to people and get it to that point. But I think watching the local districts and our state and the states around us that have implemented this, I can't see why we wouldn't do it.
Jeff Ney:
Great.
Aaron Chapin:
That's right.
Jeff Ney:
It's a good thing. It's a good thing.
Aaron Chapin:
I know.
Jeff Ney:
Change is always difficult, but this is a good thing.
Aaron Chapin:
This could be great for our kids. Yeah. We are out of time. Thanks to you. Senator ,Steve Santarsiero we really appreciate you being here, Senator. We know you're super busy this time of year and it's only going to get busier. So thank you, sir, for being around.
State Sen. Steve Santarsiero:
Thank you for the opportunity. And I want to thank you guys for your leadership on this, and advocacy. And obviously, I can't not take the opportunity to thank all your members for what they do day in, day out to prepare the next generation. It's a calling and we're grateful.
Aaron Chapin:
Yeah, they're pretty awesome. Yeah. We appreciate that compliment, and you're absolutely correct. And we really should thank our Board of Directors who got on board back in October when we were talking about this. I remember the discussion, and they were all in.
Jeff Ney:
And all the work that the Legislative Committee did.
Aaron Chapin:
Yes. And the Ledge Committee were thereafter. So Mike, thank you for joining us as well. It's been a pleasure having you on. Everything okay up there in the Northeast? You doing all right?
Mike Cherinka:
Yes. Yes. It's a little quieter without you guys here, but we want you back.
Aaron Chapin:
I will.
Mike Cherinka:
Come on back. We miss you in the great Northeast.
Aaron Chapin:
Well, thank you, Mike, for joining us. And thanks for all the work you do, not just on the Ledge Committee, but back there in Dallas. You've been an important part to that local for a long, long time. So thank you.
Mike Cherinka:
And thank you guys for what you're doing for our members, too. You guys are-
Aaron Chapin:
We've got you, buddy. You got it.
Mike Cherinka:
You're out there and you're spreading the message. And Senator, thank you for taking your time today and thank you for introducing this bill. I look forward to see how it plays out.
State Sen. Steve Santarsiero:
Yeah. Thank you, Mike. And thank you for your leadership on the Ledge Committee 'cause it really did make a difference. So I appreciate that.
Aaron Chapin:
All right. And thanks to all our listeners for tuning in. It's a lot of thank-yous right there.
Jeff Ney:
It's a lot of thank-yous.
Aaron Chapin:
Got any feedback for us, everybody? Hey, you need to send us an email.
Jeff Ney:
Maybe they want to send us thanks.
Aaron Chapin:
Well, maybe they should, thanks. Or maybe they can tell us their thought about this cell phone.
Jeff Ney:
That'd be great.
Aaron Chapin:
Podcast, P-O-D-C-A-S-T. Maybe they're typing it in wrong.
Jeff Ney:
Maybe they're not looking at their phones right now.
Aaron Chapin:
Maybe podcasts. That's right. They're driving. And they're like, "Oh, I'm going to send podcast@psea.org. Send us an email. I'm Aaron Chapin.
Jeff Ney:
And I'm Jeff Ney.
Aaron Chapin:
And you have been listening to Duty Free Lunch. Bye for now.
Voiceover:
You've been listening to Duty Free Lunch with the Pennsylvania State Education Association. Visit psea.org/podcast to learn more, and don't forget to subscribe and share. Paid for by the Pennsylvania State Education Association.